Editing Help talk:Citation Style 1 (section)

== Error with origin_date for archive.today ==

I think there's an unhandled case in {{code|local function archive_url_check (url, date)|lua}}. According to line 2486 of [[Module:Citation/CS1]], <syntaxhighlight lang="lua" inline="1">-- <origin_date> is 1996 for archive.org; 2012 for archive.today</syntaxhighlight>. However, archive.today can copy archive.org snapshots with the original timestamp.

I came across this while looking at a citation with [[Help:CS1_errors#&#124;archive-url=_is_malformed|an error]] claiming {{talk quote inline|archive-url&#61; is malformed: timestamp}}. The timestamp is correctly 14 digits.

{{reflist-talk|
<ref>{{Cite web|title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh|url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html|access-date=November 7, 2022|website=Rock Salt Plum Review|archive-date=August 12, 2007|archive-url=https://archive.today/20070812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html|url-status=dead}}</ref>
}}

In this example, [https://archive.today/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html the archive.today listing] says it was {{talk quote|archived via http://web.archive.org/20070812121105/www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}

Either the starting year for both archives should be the same, or else the guidance at [[:Category:CS1_errors:_archive-url]] should explain why pre-2012 archive.today links are discouraged. [[User:Blepbob|Blepbob]] ([[User talk:Blepbob|talk]]) 03:59, 20 January 2026 (UTC)

:The error only occurs if you use the archive of an archive, the simple solution would be not to do that as it serves no purpose. The setup is expecting the date that the archiving happened, which in the case of archive.today was 'Decemeber 4, 2013' not 'August 12, 2007'. That latter date was the date archive.org archived the page, if you want to use that date use the archive.org link.<br />Using the archive.today link is completely redundant. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 14:19, 20 January 2026 (UTC)
:Doing a few spots checks of the roughly 7000 articles with this error[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&limit=500&offset=0&profile=default&search=%22%7Carchive-url%3D+is+malformed%3A+timestamp%22&ns0=1&searchToken=9g42xoeyy2r4nt56logszkfqj] they're all appear to be redundantly using archives of archives. I wonder if this is something that could be mass corrected. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 15:03, 20 January 2026 (UTC)
::IMO mass correction isn't as simple as making the start year the same across archives.
::*It's not clear to me what the benefit is in replacing pre-2012 {{code|archive.today}} citations. Redundant hosting does serve a purpose. Archives are subject to separate legal requirements based on activity, e.g. [[Internet_Archive#Access_blocking_in_Indonesia|country-level blocks]] or [[Wayback_Machine#Archived_content_legal_issues|takedown requests]]. Archives aren't immune to downtime or link rot.
::*The error message and help guidance should still be updated because the timestamp is not malformed (i.e. it is 14 characters). This is confusing.
::*The archive.today check doesn't handle the alternate domains, so https://archive.is/20070812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html doesn't get flagged.
::*I imagine the typical chain of events is that a human editor adds a (shortened) {{code|archive.ph}} URL, which a bot replaces with a timestamped {{code|archive.today}} URL, and produces this parameter error without any human oversight. [[User:Blepbob|Blepbob]] ([[User talk:Blepbob|talk]]) 02:35, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
:I have tweaked the error message [[Help:CS1 errors#archive_url|help text]] some.
:
:I have also tweaked the module sandboxen to recognize the alternate archive.today top level domains .ph, .is, .md, .li, .fo, .vn (most-commonly to least-commonly used order – as of a couple of days ago).  Additional tweaks change the pre-origin date limit error message to a maintenance message (archive.today family only):
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 12, 2007 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 12, 2007 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}
:But, when the year portion of the timestamp is earlier than 1996 (the archive.org origin) the module returns an error message:
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 12, 2007 |archive-url=https://archive.today/19950812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 12, 1995 |archive-url=https://archive.today/19950812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}
:I have expanded the archive.today family testing to check {{para|archive-date}} against the {{para|archive-url}} timestamp:
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 21, 2007 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 21, 2007 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}
:It is my understanding that use of url-shortening is discouraged so I have added a test to identify those archive.today family urls that use the five-character shortening.  When detected, the module adds a maintenance category:
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{cite news/new |author=Motamayor, Rafael |title=The Major Avatar Role That Josh Brolin Is Glad He Turned Down
 |url=https://www.slashfilm.com/1938932/josh-brolin-turned-down-avatar-stephen-lang-quaritch-role/ |website=slashfilm.com |date=August 25, 2025 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://archive.ph/HhnMr |archive-date=December 30, 2025}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{cite news/new |author=Motamayor, Rafael |title=The Major Avatar Role That Josh Brolin Is Glad He Turned Down
 |url=https://www.slashfilm.com/1938932/josh-brolin-turned-down-avatar-stephen-lang-quaritch-role/ |website=slashfilm.com |date=August 25, 2025 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://archive.ph/HhnMr |archive-date=December 30, 2025}}
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 16:22, 25 January 2026 (UTC)

:"the simple solution would be not to do that as it serves no purpose"
:I won't say that's completely true; I find in a few cases, archive.today is still able to preserve the archived web page as "frozen" without all the dynamic json stuff which otherwise would take longer for an archive.org webpage to load. And also in some cases, the website was long gone, and to "preserve" it and load it better, the archived link would go through archive.today.
:I did so for some archived websites such as [https://archive.today/20210425130156/https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/webarchives/2009-05-01%2016:43:50.000/wp/details/http://app.lta.gov.sg/corp_press_content.asp?start=658 this case] (from Web Archive Singapore), because also [https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/webarchives/2009-05-01%2016:43:50.000/wp/details/http://app.lta.gov.sg/corp_press_content.asp?start=658 the archived website did some encoding or smth] that made accessing the archived site a bit more difficult to access.--[[User:ZKang123|ZKang123]] ([[User talk:ZKang123|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/ZKang123|contribs]]) 01:50, 27 January 2026 (UTC)

===Archive error error===

{{mdf|Help talk:CS1 errors#Archive error error}}
The template is claiming that https://archive.today/20081012124828/http://www.thefa.com/TheFACup/TheFACommunityShield/NewsAndFeatures/Postings/2003/08/60753.htm is an archive url error, the help page does not describe the format for archive.today urls, but this url certainly works.  There are three such error messages in [[2003 FA Community Shield]].  All the best: ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]''<small> 20:28, 18 January 2026 (UTC).<br /></small>
:{{ping|Rich Farmbrough}} This is the same issue at [[Help talk:Citation Style 1#Error with origin_date for archive.today]]. It's because archive.today was founded in 2013 so cannot have archived a page in 2008. They must have copied it from archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20081012124828/http://www.thefa.com/TheFACup/TheFACommunityShield/NewsAndFeatures/Postings/2003/08/60753.htm. No doubt someone could write a bot to go through changing all instances of *archive.today/200* to <s>*web.archive.org/web/200*</s> <ins>point at the original archive rather than a copy</ins>. [[User:DrKay|DrKay]] ([[User talk:DrKay|talk]]) 22:47, 21 January 2026 (UTC) Amended. 13:50, 23 January 2026 (UTC)
::But the archive link to archive.today redirects to archive.md – and when that URL is substituted in the template, all is fine. So why should a working URL cause an error message, and worse, suppress the archive link? -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 13:05, 23 January 2026 (UTC)
:::If you're asking about the technical point, because, as explained at [[Help talk:Citation Style 1#Error with origin_date for archive.today]], "According to line 2486 of Module:Citation/CS1, <syntaxhighlight lang="lua" inline="1">-- <origin_date> is 1996 for archive.org; 2012 for archive.today</syntaxhighlight>". There's no error tracking for archive.md. This is all in lines 2486 ff. of the module. If you're asking about the policy or wisdom of setting up such error tracking, then I make no comment and have made no comment. [[User:DrKay|DrKay]] ([[User talk:DrKay|talk]]) 13:40, 23 January 2026 (UTC)
::::As archive.today is forwarded (redirected) to archive.md, a datecheck for the former seems unnecessary when a replacement in the citations with the latter is accepted. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 15:44, 23 January 2026 (UTC)
::PS: Surely, >11,000 entries in [[:Category:CS1 errors: archive-url]] indicate a diagnostic problem. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 13:12, 23 January 2026 (UTC)
::Another issue is that where the original is from webcitation.org there is no date-checking we can do in those webcitation urls.  I see no reason we should not support proleptic archive.today dates.  An inappropriate range check is still a range check but it also still inappropriate. All the best: ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]''<small> 14:04, 23 January 2026 (UTC).<br /></small>
:::{{Ping|Trappist the monk}} can we fix this by setting an earlier or no origin date for archive.today please. All the best: ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]''<small> 14:10, 23 January 2026 (UTC).<br /></small>
::::Agreed, e.g. there is nothing wrong with {{cite web|title=1, Aney Marg: Rabri gets second eviction notice |date=17 December 2005 |url=http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/84135/ |archiveurl=https://archive.today/20090528133703/http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/84135/ |archivedate=2009-05-28 |url-status=live |accessdate=2009-05-26 }} based on a prior webcitation.org snapshot. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 18:44, 24 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::So an archive link with a correctly formatted date and a URL that works gets suppressed because the system believes that archive, archive.today, cannot possibly hold that page – but it does. If a normal user would remove en masse working links to archived pages from our articles, they would correctly be accused of disruptive editing and vandalism and would quickly be censured. But here we have a system wickedly behaving with impunity. I don't know whether the obvious solution, a bot replacing archive.to with archive.md, is feasible, but these unfounded and erroneous {{citation error|1={{!}}archive-url= is malformed: timestamp}} action must stop immediately. -- [[User:Michael Bednarek|Michael Bednarek]] ([[User talk:Michael Bednarek|talk]]) 23:51, 24 January 2026 (UTC)
::Wait, so what is the expectation from the editors, we are supposed to now start taking all of these "Saved from" URLs from archive.today headings, and copying them into the citations instead?
::Surely a bot should be doing such a mundane change, not bothering readers and editors? --[[User:Joy|Joy]] ([[User talk:Joy|talk]]) 11:42, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::And there is no guarantee that the "saved from" is still live.  All the best: ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]''<small> 12:00, 12 February 2026 (UTC).<br /></small>

=== <code>|archive-url=</code> is malformed: timestamp ===
I dont see anything wrong in archive url of the following citation:<br /><syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext">{{cite web |url=http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/clubs/club=52806/profile/index.html |title=Rosenborg BK |publisher=[[UEFA|Union of European Football Associations]] |access-date=20 April 2011 |archive-date=21 April 2011 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20110421131034/http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/clubs/club=52806/profile/index.html |url-status=dead }}</syntaxhighlight>Which is creating:<br />{{cite web |url=http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/clubs/club=52806/profile/index.html |title=Rosenborg BK |publisher=[[UEFA|Union of European Football Associations]] |access-date=20 April 2011 |archive-date=21 April 2011 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20110421131034/http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/clubs/club=52806/profile/index.html |url-status=dead }}<br />––<span style="background-color: #DEF3FD;"><span style="color: #000099; font-weight: bold; font-family: Georgia;">KE</span>mel<span style="color: red;">49</span>([[User talk:KEmel49|📝]],[[Special:Contributions/KEmel49|📋]])</span> 12:45, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:This seems to be an instance covered by a previous comment, [[#Archive error error]]. archive.today didn't exist as such in 2011 (see previous comprehensive discussion for details). [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] ([[User talk:Pol098|talk]]) 12:58, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::The above example confused me. Change {{tld|cite web}} to {{tld|cite web/new}} and it is fine. Only waiting for the sandbox to update. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 17:45, 7 February 2026 (UTC)

* <s>'''Yes undo this change''' - it has no consensus and is spamming the site with over [https://sdzerobot.toolforge.org/category-counts/raw?category=CS1+errors%3A+archive-url 16,000 error messages and going up daily]. There is no requirement to use the Wayback Machine. They often removes archives - Archive.today is ''the only option available''. It's usually why we use archive.today they still have what Wayback removed. It's an unfixable red-error messages in many cases.</s>  -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 06:34, 31 January 2026 (UTC)
* I have this problem too, in [[Pop screamo]] fn 9. The archive link is valid and the error report is completely erroneous. The [[Help:Citation_Style_1#Accept-this-as-written_markup|accept-this-as-written markup]] is not working for {{para|archive-url}}. This should be fixed. [[User:Hawkeye7|<span style="color:#800082">Hawkeye7</span>]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|<span style="font-size:80%">(discuss)</span>]] 20:58, 3 February 2026 (UTC)

=== Inconsistent bugs in CS1 ===

Three examples:

:'''1995'''
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 12, 2007 |archive-url=https://archive.today/19950812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 12, 1995 |archive-url=https://archive.today/19950812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}

:'''2006'''
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 12, 2010 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20060812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{Cite web/new |title=Rock Salt Plum Welcomes Artist Mikey Welsh |url=http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html |website=Rock Salt Plum Review |archive-date=August 12, 2006 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20060812121105/http://www.rocksaltplum.com/RSPSpring2007/ARTMikeyWelsh.html}}

:'''2007'''
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{cite magazine |url=http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/thegobetweens/albums/album/90247/review/5943988/16_lovers_lane |title=The Go-Betweens: 16 Lovers Lane |magazine=[[Rolling Stone]] |location=New York |date=9 February 1989 |access-date=14 December 2021 |last=Azerrad |first=Michael |author-link=Michael Azerrad |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070518205122/http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/thegobetweens/albums/album/90247/review/5943988/16_lovers_lane |archive-date=18 May 2007 |url-status=dead}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{cite magazine |url=http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/thegobetweens/albums/album/90247/review/5943988/16_lovers_lane |title=The Go-Betweens: 16 Lovers Lane |magazine=[[Rolling Stone]] |location=New York |date=9 February 1989 |access-date=14 December 2021 |last=Azerrad |first=Michael |author-link=Michael Azerrad |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070518205122/http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/thegobetweens/albums/album/90247/review/5943988/16_lovers_lane |archive-date=18 May 2007 |url-status=dead}}


* '''1995''' - Right. Because it predates web archiving.
* '''2006''' - Right. Because it's normal for Archive.today to have old captures saved from elsewhere. These captures often no longer exist where they originally came from. 
* '''2007''' - Makes no sense. Why is 2006 clear, but 2007 is error? How are users supposed to fix the error message or clear the tracking category? -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 22:33, 3 February 2026 (UTC)

:You used live version. In sandbox:
::<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext" inline="1">{{cite magazine/new |url=http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/thegobetweens/albums/album/90247/review/5943988/16_lovers_lane |title=The Go-Betweens: 16 Lovers Lane |magazine=[[Rolling Stone]] |location=New York |date=9 February 1989 |access-date=14 December 2021 |last=Azerrad |first=Michael |author-link=Michael Azerrad |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070518205122/http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/thegobetweens/albums/album/90247/review/5943988/16_lovers_lane |archive-date=18 May 2007 |url-status=dead}}</syntaxhighlight>
:::{{cite magazine/new |url=http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/thegobetweens/albums/album/90247/review/5943988/16_lovers_lane |title=The Go-Betweens: 16 Lovers Lane |magazine=[[Rolling Stone]] |location=New York |date=9 February 1989 |access-date=14 December 2021 |last=Azerrad |first=Michael |author-link=Michael Azerrad |archive-url=https://archive.today/20070518205122/http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/thegobetweens/albums/album/90247/review/5943988/16_lovers_lane |archive-date=18 May 2007 |url-status=dead}}
:--[[User:FlatLanguage|FlatLanguage]] ([[User talk:FlatLanguage|talk]]) 13:51, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
::OK I'm clearly confused. We are only waiting for the sandbox to update. -- [[User:GreenC|<span style="color: #006A4E;">'''Green'''</span>]][[User talk:GreenC|<span style="color: #093;">'''C'''</span>]] 17:46, 7 February 2026 (UTC)